efnet servers being ddos'd - personal thoughts

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Do you think abusive opers are the reason for some of the attacks on efnet?

YES
43
61%
NO
27
39%
 
Total votes: 70
thedude
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efnet servers being ddos'd - personal thoughts

Postby thedude » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:45 am

I have been on irc for a long long time. went from efnet -> undernet -> ircnet -> dalnet and now back to efnet. Prob one of the oldest irc servers in the world you would think that things have changed.. but they haven't..

mpls.ca was one of the *BEST* efnet servers, but it delinking was for the better. Everytime they get packeted, thats lost revenue for the isp thats hosting the service (even if they don't get dropped completly..)

now to my point ->

Many efnet opers like to abuse op's, and every other oper knows its happening (we know you see the server messages everytime a bunk kill or ban is set)

Two things i have seen most recently are:

* Threatening to jupe channels/juping channels cause you dont' like somebody.
* banning, or killing a host cause you think the vhost is "lame" and other 'no real reason' excuses..
* killing nicks to 'own' it and stick an abusive bot on it with a 'bad' realname to make the real person look like an idiot (joining it to gay channels if they are straight?)

i could go on for ever.. but you get the picture..


i would never say that efnet deserves to get ddos'd cause i feel for the server admins.. but i would guantree 50% of the time efnet is ddos'd , its cause of a stupid oper taking advantage of his o:line.

unless this is addressed soon, i am sure the attacks will continue. When efnet admins will get a clue and kick the lame ircops , is anybodys guess.

Most of your attacks can stop, don't you want to save your network? sure this will only filter a *big* percentage, but its a start.. There is no way to block all attacks, but you can stop lots ;)

-thedude
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qurve
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Postby qurve » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:55 am

I vote yes, DDoS absolutely does happen because some opers abuse their access. However, the opers that do do this are far and few between, people just only remember the bad and not the good.
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qurve
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Re: efnet servers being ddos'd - personal thoughts

Postby qurve » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:02 am

thedude wrote:* Threatening to jupe channels/juping channels cause you dont' like somebody.


1) Channel jupes are done locally. Any oper can jupe any channel they want on their own server for any reason or no reason at all (Not that I think they should)
2) I don't think this happens very often, opers I know only jupe a channel if they are a cause of trouble.

thedude wrote:* banning, or killing a host cause you think the vhost is "lame" and other 'no real reason' excuses..


Many servers are sticking it to stupid shell-hosting companies that waste hundreds of IPs for stupid vanity IRC hosts that don't follow RFCs, and I applaud them. These IPs could be used for much more useful things.

thedude wrote:* killing nicks to 'own' it and stick an abusive bot on it with a 'bad' realname to make the real person look like an idiot (joining it to gay channels if they are straight?)


Never in my 2 years of opering have I seen this happen, you'd lose your oline for this. If you can ever show me an oper doing this in real-time, I will personally talk to their admin.

thedude wrote:i would never say that efnet deserves to get ddos'd cause i feel for the server admins.. but i would guantree 50% of the time efnet is ddos'd , its cause of a stupid oper taking advantage of his o:line.


I agree, here's my comment to any DDoS kiddie who takes up the righteous cause of putting us in our place:

Where's the money you're paying us to use our bandwidth/hardware? Oh, you don't pay to use our bandwidth and hardware? Damn, sounds like we don't owe you anything.
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Jon
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Postby Jon » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:11 am

there are female opers too

50% is too high to blame some opers...
Obviously the last attack on Efnet was not the fault of opers, since numerous servers got hit, blame microsoft for the latest exploit.

also, blame the parents who brought up the kiddies and blame the society for their influece on the kiddies.

i vote no.
* j0n!~khronus@wicked.ca *
Hardy
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Postby Hardy » Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:11 am

I voted yes, becuse i think several of the attacks are due to bad opers. But just as qurve pointed out, there isnt many of them but they are often more profiled then the ones doing good.

But dossing a server because you dislike a oper is to stupid to be true. You destroy the server for thousands of other users using it to chat and also adds a risk that the server might be permanently delinked due to those attacks.. so i guess all you end up with are loosing another free & open server -you- can use to get online.
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Jepp
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Postby Jepp » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:19 am

i'm in between. there are a lot of kiddies out there that have a lot of bandwidth at their fingertips. i feel that most of the time it's machoism. i've hung out in some channels with opers and i've never really seen a vanity kill by an oper unless it's that whole birthday thing. it might just be that some kids are fed up with it and decieded that they have had enough with the little kills and just took it out on some servers, but no one is really sure unless you're them. but i honestly think that opers are not the root of the ddos problems, and it's mostly want to be "1337" kiddies.
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nitedog
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Postby nitedog » Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:22 am

I am mixed on this.

Do I believe abusive opers cause some packets? of course. that is not really a dispute.

when an abusive oper messes with the kiddies, the kiddies respond the only way they know how, with packets.

Do i think MOST attacks are due to abusive opers? hell no :)

packet kiddies have, with an 8 year history, proven that they attack people and servers for a number of reasons...

taking nicks
taking channels
abusive opers
woke up on the wrong side of the bed
failing an geometry quiz at school
baskin robins running out of mint chocolate chip icecream

all are valid reasons for kiddies to attack it seems. trying to place blame on any one aspect is rather useless. kiddies attack for any reason out there. and will continue to do so until they grow up.

leave it at that really.


--nitedog
Jepp
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Postby Jepp » Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:12 am

baskin robins running out of mint chocolate chip icecream
:x

/me knows all about that :lol:
People expect more from a kid named Jepp. Jepp's not just a name, it's an idea!
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Pills
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Postby Pills » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:09 pm

People that abuse their O:lines are obviously the reasons for some of the attacks. I don't think there's any debate there. However, I have to agree with nitedog that attacks can and do happen for any reason.
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tiz
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Postby tiz » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:39 pm

Some opers are lame, so yes of course attacks are caused by them...

On the same note, a lot of users are lame, so yes of course attacks are caused by them...

Works both ways...

-tiz
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Re: efnet servers being ddos'd - personal thoughts

Postby root » Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:45 am

thedude wrote:
Many efnet opers like to abuse op's, and every other oper knows its happening (we know you see the server messages everytime a bunk kill or ban is set)
-thedude

Your absolutly right. Most opers like to abuse. You know why they like to abuse? Because they can. And if a network like Eris Free decides to give an indevidual IRCops, its because they trust (s)he enough with such a pleasure.

Now, as people from time to time may forget. This is only, and yes I used the word ONLY, Internet relay chat. Take it easy, relax, there is no need to panic and go crazy over this.

Unless im missing something, wasn't irc suppose to be one of the last resources on the internet untouched by corporate companys and bullshit like that? An outlet where people can go to just talk and have fun and occasionally (gasp) use it to download music!

If some few bad apples actually sit there and think they have accomplished something by trying to DDoS one the the few last remaining resources on the internet still ran for the public freely then they do not comprehend what they are doing.

In short, DDoS was and is not presently being caused by IRCops. DDoS kiddies do what they do because they think it's cool and they all want to be like mafiaboy. They do something that requires relatively no talent (yes, you do have to store them) to host a botnet and attack a network. The larger the botnet, the larger the damage.

But for those of you who disagree and say, 'It's the IRCops' fault totally' then ask yourself this, "If an IRCop isn't rude, crude and disrespectful to those whom they think of as a threat, then how would they evaluate the situation and come to a conclusion on how to deal with the indevidual?".

In other words, fight an asshole with his own techniques. You can't expect and IRCop to just roll over and try to discuss something rationally with someone who thinks he is the lord of the internet cuz he downloaded some gt bot with netBIOS spreading and think he is the leetest thing to happen since FreeBSD. IRCop's face hundreads of schmucks a day who think they have the right to be on the network giving attitude to whoever and whenever. And the job of the IRCop is to ensure obviosuly the safety of the network while maintaining a nice chat environment for the users.

If the piss off a kiddie in the process, to bad. That's like trying to find a politician who never lies. (Other then Bush, GO US)
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lucy
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Postby lucy » Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:30 am

i'm not so sure abusive is the right word. maybe some opers are abusive, i dunno.
i do know theres alot of rude mean asshole/bitches on irc, opers and nonopers alike. i dont necessarily consider that abuse, but i'm sure it causes packets.
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Jon
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Postby Jon » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:21 am

root, this isn`t directly pointed at you.

I tend not to agree that "it's just irc, relax."
Everyone uses this phrase, always have and prolly always will use it.

Sure if someone msg`s you "you are gay" you shouldn't take it seriously, because it is just irc and comments from unknowns shouldn't be taken seriously.

But, when a server is taken down, when a channel is taken over, and when useless bullshit occurs, it does matter. It matters to the people who spend a bit of time running the servers, running the channels and trying to have a conversation with someone.

It's impossible to relax when ddos are flying left and right, causing downtime and costing money. I can't relax if someone attacks me.
IRC may be something you can just turn off and walk away, but most don`t.

IRC is like anything else you enjoy, you do, or is part of. If something goes wrong, you feel the effects of it. If i spend lots of time making a website and someone takes it down, i get mad and take offense to it. I don`t "just relax". In my opinion, it goes the same for IRC. If someone takes my botnet down or my channel down, i take offense to it.

I don`t think IRC use to be what it once was. People shouldn't act any differently on or off irc. To me, it's a question of maturity.
* j0n!~khronus@wicked.ca *
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deww
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Postby deww » Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:21 pm

Jon wrote:I don`t think IRC use to be what it once was. People shouldn't act any differently on or off irc. To me, it's a question of maturity.


You make some good points. As for the original topic, I'm sure that some people are abusing their privileges, thus drawing attacks. However, I've seen people get attacked or launch attacks just because they can. No one in particular upset them, but perhaps running out of that ice cream flavor. :). But getting to what I quoted. As far as I remember, there had always been select groups who attempt to take over channels. There had always been the group of people who feel superior because of their ability to ./script known-flawed boxes to setup bots of some kind. And unfortunately people to act differently because they're online. Not just IRC, any type activity where your face is not always revealed. Why do people go online to cyber? Easier than conceal your real identity, let's you open up in a different way. In the end they can just stay offline and then that world would disappear. It's like you can be bi-polar. And I think in reality, you're right. I'm willing to bet most of the people who cause these kinds of trouble probably reflect a lot of their maturity in real life, while online.

PS - I never cyber. K. Thx! Bye! :wink:
nitedog
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Postby nitedog » Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:21 am

tiz wrote:Some opers are lame, so yes of course attacks are caused by them...

On the same note, a lot of users are lame, so yes of course attacks are caused by them...

Works both ways...

-tiz


on the other side of the coin...

irc is not a kiddies playground. taking channels, nicks, * from others gets the problem reversed...IE a a chanfix, or drones cleaned, etc etc etc.

if a kiddie screws up, it will be addressed.
basiclly, kiddies generally have themselves to blame for anything "abusive" towards them. reguardless how an oper handles a situation with a kiddie...the kiddie is still the one at fault in my book.

I could care less if an oper killed your ddos net. or juped your channel. or killed soandso for xxx reason. if you packet, you are instantly at fault more then whatever the oper/user did.

there is no such thing as a "good packet kiddie"

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