efnet servers being ddos'd - personal thoughts

General talk about EFnet

Moderators: Website/Forum Admins, EFnet/General Moderators

Do you think abusive opers are the reason for some of the attacks on efnet?

YES
43
61%
NO
27
39%
 
Total votes: 70
deppy
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:30 am
Location: Fairfax, VA

Postby deppy » Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:10 pm

Irc must be exempt from the golden rule of "do unto others...."
Kiddies take channels....opers jupe them.
Kiddies take nicknames....opers kill/kline them.

Notice the pattern to this... Kidde <insert abuse here>...Oper <insert punishment here>

I do see that the opers have taken less crap from the kiddies over the years, which is possibly the reason why more and more servers have been hit with packets and been forced to leave.
User avatar
strikelight
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2003 1:13 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby strikelight » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:31 pm

deppy wrote:Irc must be exempt from the golden rule of "do unto others...."
Kiddies take channels....opers jupe them.
Kiddies take nicknames....opers kill/kline them.

Notice the pattern to this... Kidde <insert abuse here>...Oper <insert punishment here>

I do see that the opers have taken less crap from the kiddies over the years, which is possibly the reason why more and more servers have been hit with packets and been forced to leave.


So are you implying 'let the kiddies have the rule of the land'?

Code: Select all

 ____________
|:   _____  :|
|___    |   .|____
|:  |  :|    |   :|
|_______|_________|

- silence isn't golden when i'm holding it inside -
User avatar
qurve
Site Admin
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:28 am
Location: Philadelphia PA, USA

Postby qurve » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:55 am

deppy wrote:Irc must be exempt from the golden rule of "do unto others...."
Kiddies take channels....opers jupe them.
Kiddies take nicknames....opers kill/kline them.

Notice the pattern to this... Kidde <insert abuse here>...Oper <insert punishment here>

I do see that the opers have taken less crap from the kiddies over the years, which is possibly the reason why more and more servers have been hit with packets and been forced to leave.


OMG, we better inform the real-life justice system of this brilliant new way of approaching crime, ignore it! deppy, I think you may have just solved the crime problem. Do I hear nobel peace prize?
EFNet Web Lackey, and IRCop
User avatar
slushey
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:11 pm
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Contact:

Postby slushey » Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:54 am

I hate being dense but I disagree. As far as I remember, IRC is a privledge not a right. I am not taking up for abusive opers, but really, it's not that big of a deal.

Now here's the fun part. How many opers actually say they speak to someone before they jupe a channel, kill a user, remove a host from their server, etc. I'd say 4 of 5 opers (or more) wouldn't. People have to learn to use their online voice. Now, you may say you can't hear me, but really, you can. The way you type, the tones you use in your typing, and even just the words you chose can vastly help you and your community prosper. What would work better:

a. Hi, can you please use a more appropriate hostname.
b. Get a new hostname, lamer.

As you can see, there are ways you can approach problems. I was always tought by my peers that tools were to be used on people as a last resort. Don't get me wrong, it's your choice, but if I were to admin a server, I would personally make sure that tools were used only as a last resource. I wouldn't have a haven for abuse, but I wouldn't have abuse from my staff either. If I was removing someone, they would surely know why they were removed, and I would try to be as specific as possible.

Proper training can lead to fixing so many problems on so many differant levels.

~smiles~ :D
Humor is the best sense we ALL have in common.

slushey ....just me
nothing more.....nothing less

"In Canada we play Duck, Duck, Moose."
Aariek
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:05 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Hi

Postby Aariek » Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:55 pm

Hello,

First of all, this is my first post to the EFnet forums, wish me luck for I'm planning to be active around here. Now, to go on with the topic:

EFnet is not the only network in the world being hit. Let me remind you of the attacks which brought DALnet down. They used to be one of the TOP 4, and nowadays only have 40k of users. This doesn't usually happen because of the oper attitude. I mean, heck go to check Quakenet, THAT is a lame oper attitude. EFnet still is OK from this point of view.

Secondly, there is a MOTD on every server (or should be) which is there to familiarise the guest with the server and network rules. If an oper doesn't have one of the best days and a kiddie comes to his private starting to swear/curse him, what would you do? Remember those weird creatures with so tremendous power are, still, humans - with feelings and moods. Read the oper FAQ documents provided at http://www.irchelp.org and then think again. Sending unsolicited messages to opers is not one of the brightest things a user would do. I myself find it annoying for a user who doesn't know me to send me an unsolicited or unapproved message. Especially when using unix-based irc clients. It is a common point of the netiquette to ask before messaging someone, be him oper or user.

Thirdly, the term abuse is being mistakenly understood. If you were killed, you regard that as abuse even though, uncounsciously, you did something wrong which needed a warning. An oper did his job. Today I was chatting in #EFnet when a guy reported 'abuse' as being klined on a server he usually connected on after he patched his mIRC with some funny script, and was testing it in a channel called #testblabla something. After repeated join/parts he got disconnected and banned. For those who are not familiar with the Server Monitor Bots (ofently regarded as TCM's), these bots can be set up to kline users which constantly join/part the same channel in a given timeframe. That was not abuse. It is not normal for a user to perform a join-flood, even though he wanted to test his poony script. There is your example.

Remember the reason kiddies have to packet different hosts: provoke chaos, damage networks which voluntareley provide their services for free to maintain a virtual community. The oper is a member of this community, but so is the common user like you and me. They simply want to damage, no matter what. They want to show their powers and want to be known. Hacking is bad, and usually bad things make you known. Anyone remembers a bad thing, whilst good things are forgotten. There is a weird psychology that applies to such people.

As a conclusion to this post, opers are not necessarely the cause of EFnet being a target of DoS, but the Network itself. It exists and that is bad thing for these kiddies. I am not suggesting anything, no worries. The sole thing that can be done against them is complaining to their uplinks.

Cheers!
Note: Before replying to this post, take a moment to read http://www.artelekom.net/legal . Aditionally, please make sure to quote the lines you are replying to.

Yours trully,
Aariek (ACS18-RIPE)
The kewt puppy
aariekje@comcast.net
deppy
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:30 am
Location: Fairfax, VA

Postby deppy » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:48 am

Strikelight, No i was not implying the kiddes should have the rule of the land, i was simply pointing out the fact that there is an effect for every cause.

Kiddes do dumb things, the oper punishes them.

As for you qurve, read the first line of my last post before opening your sarcastic ass mouth........

"IRC MUST BE EXEMPT FROM THE GOLDEN RULE" If you forget what that is... its 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. I said IRC must be exempt from it, hence the reason kiddies get so upset when they get killed/klined/juped even though they more then likely did something to get punished.
User avatar
slushey
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:11 pm
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Contact:

Postby slushey » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:11 am

deppy wrote:Kiddes do dumb things, the oper punishes them.


You hit it right on the head. IRCops don't use their voice (read my post above for the definition of online voice) therefor kiddies are punished at will without usually even knowing what they did. If you spent the time talking to them I'm sure they'd understand what is wrong and most likely just stop (and get bored and move on).
Humor is the best sense we ALL have in common.



slushey ....just me

nothing more.....nothing less



"In Canada we play Duck, Duck, Moose."
User avatar
strikelight
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2003 1:13 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby strikelight » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:28 am

slushey wrote: If you spent the time talking to them I'm sure they'd understand what is wrong and most likely just stop (and get bored and move on).


I'd like to live on fantasy island with slushy :roll:

Everyone who IRC's is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.. Those doing wrong, do so with wrong intentions at heart.

Code: Select all

 ____________
|:   _____  :|
|___    |   .|____
|:  |  :|    |   :|
|_______|_________|


- silence isn't golden when i'm holding it inside -
User avatar
slushey
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:11 pm
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Contact:

Postby slushey » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:33 am

strikelight wrote:Everyone who IRC's is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.. Those doing wrong, do so with wrong intentions at heart.


Did I say that voice will always solve it? No. I just said that tools are used as a last resort not as a first flinch.
Humor is the best sense we ALL have in common.



slushey ....just me

nothing more.....nothing less



"In Canada we play Duck, Duck, Moose."
deppy
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:30 am
Location: Fairfax, VA

Postby deppy » Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:26 am

slushey wrote: IRCops don't use their voice therefor kiddies are punished at will without usually even knowing what they did..


So what you're telling me is that some kid thats 16yo that just hacked into my eggdrop bot and tookover my chaneel, then began to jupe all my nicks and putting them in channels such as #I_AM_A_PEDOPHILE, has no clue that what he is doing is bad? That's so naive.

This is my whole reason behind why I think that the opers might be to blame here and there (killing for getting banned, etc) but why I think the kiddies themself are the only ones to blame. How often do you see an oper just randomly decide to kill a kiddie, with no reason to back up their actions??
User avatar
slushey
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:11 pm
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Contact:

Postby slushey » Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:47 am

deppy wrote:So what you're telling me is that some kid thats 16yo that just hacked into my eggdrop bot and tookover my chaneel, then began to jupe all my nicks and putting them in channels such as #I_AM_A_PEDOPHILE, has no clue that what he is doing is bad? That's so naive.


No, but don't you think everyone deserves a second chance? People change.

deppy wrote:This is my whole reason behind why I think that the opers might be to blame here and there (killing for getting banned, etc) but why I think the kiddies themself are the only ones to blame. How often do you see an oper just randomly decide to kill a kiddie, with no reason to back up their actions??


Maby if you talked to them they might actually change what they are doing? You never know the power of your own voice.
Humor is the best sense we ALL have in common.



slushey ....just me

nothing more.....nothing less



"In Canada we play Duck, Duck, Moose."
User avatar
Dario
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:33 am
Location: somewhere near Philly
Contact:

Postby Dario » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:17 pm

qurve wrote:I vote yes, DDoS absolutely does happen because some opers abuse their access. However, the opers that do do this are far and few between, people just only remember the bad and not the good.


I agree with this statement.

I have also seen this type of behavior affect things on a channel level.

You can have 20 + nice ops, and 3 real power freaks. The 3 power freaks seem to attract a majority of the problems to a channel.

Having been a power freak in the past myself I can understand how this occurs. I have very slowly learned to "Ask, for a change of behavior, nick" prior to using the little power of the kick, and ban.

This does not always work, nothing ever will. However it does tend to inform the person as to why the action is being taken against them.

There will always be people who are just looking to start trouble. I have found that often the best response to them is an /ignore until they go away.
Member DNRC
User avatar
feer
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:44 pm
Location: Canada, St. Catharines
Contact:

Postby feer » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:54 pm

It isn't the fault of the opers at all. imagine that You / your oper team are nice enough to provide bandwidth and hardware for people to chat. You then have every right to do as you see fit to protect your server.

No oper has the time to respond with an indepth meaningful discussion about the rights and wrongs of a kiddies actions with him/her. The easiest and usually most effective solution is to simply kline them and jupe their channel.

A hard-enforcement stance is needed to keep users inline or it would all be chaos.
rudegyal
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:15 am
Contact:

Postby rudegyal » Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:25 am

it goes both ways , i've seen ircops who ddos , and packet kiddies who ddos . i think ddos is cruel and there should be more laws about that lame junk , i don't care if it's just " irc " or just the " internet " . ppl spend money for bein online , then some loser comes along because he's bored or wants to have laffs . all known packet kiddies shohld be killed pon connect :roll:
xmage
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:41 am

Postby xmage » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:42 am

Hm. I would have to say talking to a 'kiddie' about the situation, 9 times out of 10, will just cause more havok. There seems to be only a handful out there that you can actually reason with. Half the time, it's not even worth it. I agree with putting forth the proper actions to stop the abuser. When the abuser /msg's you back after you've taken the proper action, simply /ignore from there on out. If the user doesn't "get it through his tiny briain" after being warned, then it's his/her own fault. Seems effective for a lone user like myself.

I do agree, people do in fact change.
xmage@EFnet

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest